L'épée AAAARGH !!!!!

Je viens de lire ceci sur le site :

L'épée :
La règle n'impose pas d'épée particulière. Voyons ce qui se faisait à l'époque :

Jusqu'au XII : épée longue 2 mains (branc)
Fin XII : épée longue 2 mains mais avec un meilleur acier
A partir de mi XIII : le chevalier à 2 épées :
         - La 1ère lame légère, cannelée, longue .../.... accrochée à l'arçon de la selle ...:...pour la frappe de taille prévue pour 1 main
         - La 2me lame plus lourde, courte .../... d'estoc .../... prévue pour 1 main



Je sens que certains vont devoir s'autoflageller jusqu'au sang !!!!

il a raison en plus

Pourtant mes sources paraissaient fiables !!?? ( Rachel Filloux, Costumes armes et harnois des chevaliers du christ )

Le livre étant validé par le GIET, je faisait confiance...je n'aurais pas du ???


MAis dis moi...dans le oakesott il y a bien des épées à 2 mains au XII et XIII ou me trompeujeu ??????? ( XIIa et XIIIa )


PAter noster qui es in caelis, sanctificetur nomen tuum........

Attention à ne pas confondre Type XII ou type XIII avec époque XII° ou XIII° siècle.
Les chiffres romains de la typologie correspondent à la classification, pas à l'époque.
La confusion vient du fait qu'en France on utilise des chiffres romains pour classer les siècles, ce qui n'est pas le cas chez les anglo-saxons.
D'où effectivement le risque d'erreur.

Et l'épée a deux mains est apparue au siècle des armures à plates

.Frère Abel >Autant pour moi, on en apprend tous les jours ! merci ! MAis alors, chez les anglo saxons, type XII ça veut dire quoi ? je ne comprend pas !!???

Ayric d'Alban a écrit:

.Frère Abel >Autant pour moi, on en apprend tous les jours ! merci ! MAis alors, chez les anglo saxons, type XII ça veut dire quoi ? je ne comprend pas !!???

curieux d'en savoir plus aussi !!!

Le type XII est un "chiffre" de référence en fonction des modèles et/ou variantes qui ont été trouvées puis classées par ordre d'évolution.

Le frère Abel nous dira si j'ai bon dans mes propres déductions !

Tu as bon.
Comme je l'ai dit plus haut "Les chiffres romains de la typologie correspondent a la classification".
Ce sont des numéros de classement dans la typologie, chaque grande famille de forme de lame répond à un numéro.

Notez que pour dater correctement une épée en utilisant oakeschott, le type de lame n'est pas suffisant :
Il faut recouper avec le type de pommeau qui est lui aussi classifié de A à O.

Aperçu pour les anglophones :

Type A. In use frequently between c. 980 and 1120. More rarely up to c. 1200 on Type X swords.
Type B. Development of A. Popular between c. 1150-1250 on swords of Types XI and XII.
Type C. Development of Viking Type IX pommel. Popular c. 980-1100 on Type X swords.
Type D. Development of C and used between c. 1230-1280, generally on Type XII swords, but occasionally on Type XIII.
Type E. Same as D, another variety. Excellent example in hand of one of the Benefactors of Naumburg Cathedral (Conrad).
Type N. A rare type, obviously a bye-form of A, characterized by extreme breadth. The only two actual examples are a large war-sword (Type XIII) in Zurich and another, even larger, in Bucharest, found in Rumania. One of the Naumburg benefactors (Wilhelm von Cam-burg, fig. 107) has one on a short sword of Type XIV.
(Oakeshott dates a long griped type N from Romania in the Records of the Medieval Sword to 1100+...)
Type O. Curiously enough, nearly every sword (and there are many) carded by carved warrior-figures in the Cathedral of Freiburg has a pommel of this unusual form. Peter in the Garden of Gethsemane (fig. 108), SS. George and Sebastian (these two have long-gripped war swords), on the West Front and one of the sleeping guards of the Holy Sepulchre. All these figures were made about 1300. There is one pommel of this sort in the Maciejowski Bible. The only actual example I know of is on a sword which was in the Gimbel collection earlier in this century.

D'intéressantes conversations et de superbes photos ici http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=23369 , attention, c'est dans la langue de shakespeare !!!!

Et voilà un petit résumé succin de la typologie (va falloir bosser votre anglais !) :

Type X

The type X blades are broad and of medium length (avg. 31"). The wide fuller runs almost the whole length of the blade before fading out about an inch before the point. The point itself can be acute, but is usually rounded. The type was common during the Viking age, and continued to be popular well into the 12th century.

Sub-type Xa

This type is similar to the type X, but the fuller is more narrow. The blade is a little longer than the average type X (which is around 31 inches). It was in use from c. 1000 AD to about 1300.

Type XI

This type differs from type X by being longer, more narrow and having a narrow fuller. The point is often acute. It is believed to have been in use between c. 1100 and 1175. The sub-type XIa has avg. broader and shorter blade, but the fuller is still narrow.

Type XII

The blade is broad, flat and evenly tapering. Oakeshott's criteria for this type (in order to differentiate from other, similar, types) are: 1) a noticeable taper and an acute point, and that the grip should be short (never of hand-and-a-half length), and 2) that the fuller should not extend further than 2/3's of the length of the blade. The type XII swords are easily confused with other types, and this is further complicated by the fact that type XII's were in use during much of the High Medieval period.

Sub-type XIIa

This is basically a "Great Sword" (or "war sword") variety of type XII. The grip can be gripped with both hands. This type could be encountered during the 13th and 14th centuries. Weight about 3 to 4 lbs.


Type XIII

This type has blades with almost parallel edges running to a rounded point, and where the tang is longer than those of the usual single-handed variety. Generally, the fuller runs about halfway along the blade. The fuller is usually single, but it can be multiple. The type was in use from the middle of the 13th century to the latter half of the 14th. The same goes for the sub-types.

Sub-type XIIIa

This type is a sub-type of XIII, often called "Great Swords", "War Swords", etc. The swords have very large blades, often 32" - 40", and grips of 6" to 10". Generally, the fuller runs about halfway along the blade.

Sub-type XIIIb

This is a type XIII with a short grip.

Type XIV

This distinct type was in use between c.1275 and 1340. It is easy to recognise due to the rather short blade, which starts out broad and tapers (usually) to an acute point. The grip is relatively short. The fuller is usually of 3/4's length. Multiple fullers can be seen in a few specimens.

The first five types and five sub-types have been swords more suited for cutting/chopping than thrusting. With the advent of plate armour, the swords had to become stiffer and more suited for thrusting. Instead of having fullers and relatively parallel edges, the swords now became more tapering and of diamond cross section.

Type XV

This is a very straightforward type. Tapering, straight edges, diamond cross section and pointy - made for thrusting. Oakeshott traces the origins of this type to the end of the 13th century, but it became more widely used in the 14th and 15th centuries, falling out of use in the beginning of the 16th century.

Sub-type XVa

This type is similar to the XV, but generally with a more narrow and slender blade. The grip is much longer, from 7" to 9" (10" in a few cases).



Type XVI

This type was developed as a response to the plate-reinforced mail armour of the early 14th century. It can be hard to distinguish this type from type XIV, but the lower part is almost exclusively of pronounced diamond cross-section - more so than o­n the XIV. This provides a stiff thrusting point while retaining good cutting ability. The blades are usually between 28" to 32", with a distinctive fuller extending a little over half the length of the blade.

Sub-type XVIa

Type XVIa has a long, rather slowly tapering blade, broad at the hilt and often with a reinforced point. The fuller is often well-marked, extending about 1/3 (rarely more than half) of the blade's length. The lower part is not of diamond but of flat, hexagonal section. The hilt is long, 6" to 9" like the XIIIa and XVa, allowing for a two-handed grip.

Type XVII

The blade of this type is long, slender and acutely tapering. The cross-section is generally hexagonal. Many examples have a shallow fuller in the upper quarter of the blade. The grip is always long, allowing two-handed use. It was in use between c. 1360 and the 1420's, and was probably designed for punching through armour. The swords of this type were generally very stout, and could weigh as much as 5.5 lbs. (compared to the 3.5 to 4 lbs. of the XIIIa). This makes Oakeshott believe that these swords were used for cracking plate armour.

Type XVIII

These blades are fairly broad (2") at the hilt, and taper gracefully to a sharp point. The hilt is short, intended for o­ne-handed use. The blades are of flattened diamond cross-section, often with a pronounced mid-rib for rigidity. This style is very well adapted for both cutting and thrusting.

Sub-type XVIIIa (not shown)

This type is fairly slender, having an average length of 32". The section is the same as the XVIII, but some have a narrow fuller in the upper part. o­ne thing that sets them apart from the XVIII's is the grip, which is about an inch (or so) longer than o­n XVIII (5"+ as opposed to 4").

Sub-type XVIIIb

The blade is long, slender and acutely pointed, and, like it's brethren of this type, of flattened diamond cross-section. The hilt is very long, often around 10"-11". This type is encountered between c. 1450 and 1520.

Sub-type XVIIIc (not shown)

Like all swords of this type, the blade is of flattened diamond cross-section. It is broad and generally about 34" long. The grip can be used with o­ne or both hands.



Subtype XIX

This type has a broad, flat blade, with the edges running almost parallel to a sudden sharp point. There's a narrow fuller in the upper third of the blade, as well as a ricasso. The cross-section is hexagonal - the blade is flat with chamfered edges. This type appears by the beginning of the 15th century and is intended for single-handed use.

Type XX

This type was in use in the 14th and 15th centuries. The swords are hand-and-a-halfers, similar to type XIIIa, the broad blades having almost parallel edges gracefully tapering to a point. The fullers are usually o­ne central fuller running more than half-way down the blade, with two parallel fullers in the upper quarter of the blade.

Sub-type XXa

This sub-type of XX has a less broad blade, which narrows rather sharply to an acute point. The fullers like those of type XX.

Type XXI

This late 15th century type is similar to the well-known Cinqueda short-swords, but the blades are not necessarily that broad ("five fingers wide"), and they are as long as ordinary o­ne-handers. The hilts of some are very much like those of the Cinquedas, but others are like ordinary swords. The blade is slowly tapering to an acute point, and there are usually a couple of rather wide and shallow fullers in the upper part of the blade, or two fullers running almost the entire length of the blade.

Type XXII

This is a broad, flat blade from the end of the 15th century, the edges tapering gracefully to an acute point. There are two short, deep and narrow fullers close to each other just below the hilt.

sapristi saucisse

Merci Abel !

Je vais imprimer ton message et traduire tout ça tranquilou !


Au fait, t'es v'nu ici pour être aussi chiant que Gauvain et Dyonis ?

Dans ce cas....reste ici !!!!


A la tienne ! Tchiiin

Et vous n'avez encore rien vu !!!!

Un autre lien intéressant, illustré pas à pas : http://www.albion-swords.com/articles/oakeshott-typology.htm

Ça me tue !
J'ai déjà fais pas mal de recherches et je suis passé à coté de tout ça !

je vais laisser mes sois disant acquis de coté et revoir tout ça ! et corriger le site....

ben ouais Albion, quoi!... pour info, le fournisseur officiel d'épées du film Arn chevalier du temple...mieux que KOH, mais peut mieux faire...

Pour avoir un max de bases en un minimum de temps sur l'épée, je vous recommande le HS n°1 d'HISTOIRE MEDIEVALE (2000).
Excellent travail trés bien réalisé et trés structuré. Une petite perle qui se trouve encore assez bien.
Allez hop : un lien pour se le procurer : http://www.priceminister.com/offer/buy/18061088/Collectif-Histoire-Medievale-Hors-Serie-N-1-L-epee-Xi--Xiii-Siecle-Revue.html
Merci qui ?????

Vache !

Y a arnaque ou j'ai loupé un truc ?

Je viens de tenter de l'acheter et lorsqu'on ouvre la page on voit le livre à 14 € et des .......
+ 2,20 € de port!

Lorsqu'on veut terminer l'achat, le prix initial passe à 17 € !

Qu'est ce qui ce passe ?

Bizarre !!!
Maintenant ce lien était un exemple. Il y en a certainement ailleurs.
Le mien je l'ai eu sur Ebay, no problemo.
Bon, je vais voir combien de temps il me faudra pour le passer en pdf....
mais chuuut !!!!

Petite recherche sur Amazon : avec tout ça, vous deviendrez des cracs (y compris en anglais)!!!! http://www.amazon.fr/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?__mk_fr_FR=%C3%85M%C3%85Z%C3%95%C3%91&url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=oakeschott#/ref=nb_sb_noss?__mk_fr_FR=%C3%85M%C3%85Z%C3%95%C3%91&url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=oakeshott+sword&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Aoakeshott+sword

Puis recherche sur Ebay : http://www.ebay.fr/sch/i.html?_nkw=oakeshott&_sacat=0&_odkw=starwars+loose&_ipg=200&_stpos=52120&LH_BIN=1&_sop=15&_fcid=71&_osacat=0&LH_PrefLoc=2

Téléchargez la typologie en Pdf, et plein d'autres merveilles en pdf ici : http://chomikuj.pl/MagazynKnig/Dokumenty/Armours/Ewart+Oakeshott+*27s+Typology,690555087.pdf .
pobierz= telechargez.

Enjoy

Et enfin, petit cadeau : http://ebookbrowse.com/oakeshott-the-sword-in-the-age-of-chivalry-pdf-d438571826
260 pages pour devenir incollable !!!

Ca y est, ça marche ........................ et c'est acheté !

SANK IOU VERI MEUTCH !